whatmenthinkChivalry is dead!
Women are quick to point out the demise of traditionally chivalrous acts: opening doors, carrying heavy items, pulling back chairs, and walking on the street side of the walk. Men on the other hand are quick to defend themselves, but have yet to define a united front. I would like to present that front and I urge men to concur with comments if they agree.
Reasons Chivalry is Dead:
- Don’t go medieval on me. Chivalry was a medieval system of principles for knighthood. Bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry towards women were some of these principles. Women of that time and culture were weak and powerless, therefore chivalry demanded that knights defend the powerless. Are women still powerless? Feminist would say women are equal if not superior to men. So, why demand chivalry?
- Prince Charming meets Queen Bitch. Every man has been there. You open a door or hold an elevator but the lady doesn’t even mutter a ‘thank you’. She acts as if she is entitled to this simple act of chivalry. We may still open doors for our mothers and wives, but why should we ever do it for smug strangers?
- The roaring 50’s have passed us by… Why do women expect men to remain the same when they have changed so drastically? Only 100 years ago, women would cook, clean, wash, and make babies with her husband. Now, women perform less and less of the domestic duties. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this! I’m just saying, if women have changed, why can’t men? Why do we still perform archaic gender roles, when women are free from them.
When it comes down to a personal choice, I perform these acts on a normal basis. However, I am irked when women complain about the lack of these acts. You are not entitled to them! Chivalry is indeed dead! It died with women’s suffrage, women entering the work place, and the birth/growth of an egalitarian society. Now, please let chivalry die in peace.
I will continue perform these acts as a means to show respect and appreciation. I will gladly open a door for an elderly gentleman or lady. I will gladly give up my seat on the subway. I will gladly walk on the street side when escorting my female family members. However, I will not perform these acts because I feel an obligation to society.
Filed under: Explaining Men, For the Men | Tagged: chivalry, chivalry is dead, Dating, Life, Love, Relationships, Romance, Sex
hey! when i moved to england and my male friends insisted on holding the door open for me, it actually made me awkward! but yeah, when my close mate does act chivalrous, it does feel nice. But as a woman, i’d hate to assume that a man should be chivalrous. or i’d hate it that he holds the door or gives up his seat out of pressure.
Its great to read a guys’ perspective!
:] i think this is well-written (like so many of your other posts).
Chivalry nowadays does indeed has to come from the heart - which is more important than debating about the gender imbalances behind the story etc.
After all, men who respect women get better women :]
I like Chivalry. It makes me feel more of a man that I would stop to help and consider/help a female. Its a nice reward if it is appreciated. If not then have no quams insulting her. Chivalry changed later on once woman like Queen Elizabeth, Victoria (England), Catherine (Russia) and the Dragon Lady (China) obtained power. Chivalry evolved to something of that of a kept man. In England etc it stuck.
Meh. I’m not even sure I notice anymore. Is this even issue? Do women actually complain?
I find myself able to open most doors, navigate the sidewalk in its entire width, and I can pay someone to lug my shit around if I cannot do it myself. I’m not even sure it’s nice if someone does it for me, it’s more of a non-issue. Do it if you want to, don’t if you don’t, whatever.
I don’t think opening my door implies you respect me. Being comfortable with the fact that I probably make more money than you do, play harder when I don’t work, and generally act like a big swinging dick at all times- now that’s respect.
I’ve seen my husband hurry up & get to a door to open it for an 80 year old woman, purely as a sign of respect. I’ve seen him do it for a woman who has a stroller & a toddler she’s trying to get inside. In both instances, it was appreciated by both ladies.
Should men be REQUIRED to open a door for a woman, simply because he’s a man? No. Maybe in days gone by a woman couldn’t open a big heavy door & had to have help, but today doors are made to open easier.
My husband opens doors for me, carries heavy things for me, & puts me on the inside when we are walking on the sidewalk. Am I insulted? No.
I’ve also seen women who sneer at him after he’s held the door, like he’s a servant. I think that’s why it is disappearing.
And I would not want a door obligatorily opened for me. A genuine gesture, often done with a smile, is accepted equally with a smile and a thank-you. I am saddened to read that such gestures are greeted so coldly by others. Perhaps in our cell-phone, texting, self-service, me-and-my-little-world culture we are turning into, it makes some uncomfortable to actually have to acknowledge the existence of others in our path, let alone that they are doing something NICE for us.
Chivalry and sincerity are two different issues, and I am happy to see you note the contrasts here. In certain situations there also exists a bit of empathy; when opening for a woman with a stroller, for example, and met with the overwhelmed look of “thank-you-I’m-not-sure-HOW-I-would-have-done-that-myself” I tend to say, “I’ve been there” to imply ‘I know how much you appreciate it, don’t worry about a thing.’
I try to teach my children the grace involved in doing something nice for others, be it by letting someone with only one item in hand going in line before us with a shopping cart full; saying “Thank you” in return to any kindness; or “Excuse me” for bumping somebody, even if by accident. These are such simple values that are rapidly disappearing and I will not permit my children to be a part of their disappearance.
Great post. Be well.
I think that chivalry should not die but transend the gender gap. I enjoy having the door opened for me and I enjoy the feel of having a man want to protect me but I also enjoy opening the door for other people and the feeling of trying to protect others. It should no longer be just a requirement for men to be chivalrous but an act performed my every human.
Compulsive Writer:
I agree. It does feel nice to receive (and to perform) such actions.
Aporia:
Absolutely! If it doesn’t’ come from the heart, then why even do it?
mindhive:
I often wonder if I am too idealistic in thinking perfect strangers would reciprocate courtesy…
Alexandreena:
Women mention this quite often. Google this topic and find how many females have written blog posts on this topic. I’ve responded to them for this reason.
Karen:
Your husband is a bigger man than I. Living in Los Angeles, I only go out of my way for struggling elders and my personal friends and family.
mama llama:
“it makes some uncomfortable to actually have to acknowledge the existence of others in our path, let alone that they are doing something NICE for us.”
I found this to be quite profound. Thank you.
jwlrose:
At that point, I think it would no longer be chivalry, but courtesy. We should let the term Chivalry die with all its archaic connotations.
I don’t really feel like holding open a door is about chivalry– I just think it’s polite. I try to hold the door (unless I’m in a crazy hurry) for men and women alike.
Maxie:
I agree =) jwlrose would also agree with you.
I totally get that chivalry is a dying form. As for me, if a door is ever opened for me, I am so surprised by the act that I am a little dumbstruck and then graciously say “thank you.”
What about opening car doors? If a guy opens the door for a girl to get in, and then they get to their destination. Is the girl supposed to wait and have the guy open her door for her when they arrive. Or should she get out? I have talked to my friends about this situation. The majority of them have said they don’t wait because they don’t want the guy to think the girl thinks it’s expected that he open the door. And I do the same as well.
But for me, sometimes it’s hard to decipher when a guy is going to be chivalrous or not. So I just don’t expect it.
This article is bang on the head.
It is dying, because those women, now in their feminist mode, think acts of kindness is a weakness, I do all this door opening saying what I pleasure her company was , what do I get back….jack shit.
Then when I stop doing it they think I am rude or upset….scratch my back if I scratch your come on the roles can still be palyed
dater x:
I think that your experience with chivalry is a clear sign that it has become incompatible with the modern world. It needs to evolve into something larger.
totalanonimity:
you share the same sentiment as so many men. Unfortunately, many women don’t know this.
My husband is a 50 year old man who was raised in south Texas & was taught from the time of being young that men open doors for ladies. A struggling woman will still get the door opened for her, by him.
For me, chivalry is not dead at all. If a woman carries herself in a certain way, men respond accordingly (even the same men who other women would NOT describe as being chivalrous).
A woman who relishes her femininity, has a palpable elegance about her, oozes sophistication and eschews the aggressive domineering personality traits some women have (think Madonna) will never be short of attention from chivalrous men.
Yes, I know in my last blog entry I wrote, quite graphically, about poop and toilet stuff, but it does not mean in real life I discuss such things with men I barely know.
Men still hold doors open for me, stop in traffic to let me cross the road (even at awkward stops), happily pick the tab on dates, carry heavy things for me (including shopping bags), and tend to DIY tasks around the house.
Some of these men are happily married, some are single and content, others are single and searching. It does not make a difference.
It is the way I carry myself that makes men want to bend over backwards to please and accommodate me.
And I aint complaining! lol
x
Cara
Preach on brother!!! I have been saying this for a while now!!!
Women don’t sit at home all day cooking and cleaning and wait for men to come home anymore. They don’t have dinner ready for their husbands right after work so why should men be expected to act in a manner from the same era as that?
Women want to be treated equally but when it comes to dating they don’t want to be? Shenanigans!
I would be thoroughly impressed by any woman that had the brass tacks to approach me and ask me out and actually take me out.
The opening the doors and pulling out chairs is a polite thing to do and isn’t reserved for dates or prospective significant others. It is done as a nice thing to do and should never be expected and should always illicit a “Thank You”
WMT, I stand behind you 100% on this!!!!
Cara:
I can’t help but wonder, “Whats in it for the men?” its nice to be kind and courteous… but if we constantly encounter rudeness, we can’t help but want to stop.
Mason:
Thank you for the support!
Old people and pregnant woman deserve courtesy. Chivalry is like doing a bit of spade work. Going out on a date is a perfect example. Its a way to show a woman you are considerate and caring. Some woman still want a gentleman, well built and a little rough around the edges.
[...] Banter I dont like it, I want to fall in love, but I must defend myself from it http://whatmenthink.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/what-men-think-about-chivalry/ [...]
I don’t know what’s in it for all men, but the men who I know seem to get a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction out of seeing my megawatt ‘celebrity-type’ smile and hearing me say “thank you” or giggle (in a ladylike manner, of course! lol).
My smile can melt polar ices, so I guess that’s their reward?
OR, OR, OR!!!
Like me, they get a lovely feeling in their belly out of doing something nice for someone else?
I’m not gonna lie and say that I am physically weak, I am the opposite. Very strong for a woman, but around manly men (not the soft pansy type like you and Mason…LOL), I gladly put on an air of helplessness which just makes them feel so ‘macho’ and big and strong, that they can’t help but eagerly anticipate the next time they could be of assistance to me (not that I need it anyway, but it’s nice….).
Fact: Naturally chivalrous men love a damsel in distress.
You and Mason don’t sound like you are naturally that way, and that is why you both struggle to find justification for your attitudes towards this issue. Don’t beat up yourself over it.
x
Cara
Cara:
=D I laughed-out-loud a number of times.
I have to point out that the damsel in distress or superman syndrome as men call it is not always good. many times men do it for themselves and their personal satisfaction. However, I understand that women do appreciate it.
Hahah, Cara is taking shots now???
When was it bad for a man to be in touch with himself and think of something other than lifting weights and watching football?
I’m backin WMT up on this one
Oh, and I got references to argue that pansy comment hahaha
When a man opens a door for me, what comes to my mind is “this man has good manners and sophistication.”
When a man does not, I do not necessarily dismiss him as a person unworthy of my attention, but that’s not a man I would bring home to meet my parents. Ever. They would think that living in the US made me lower my standards to alarming depth.
Perhaps it’s the European education… I don’t know. When I see a man open a door and enter in front of the woman, what comes to mind is not” “Oh dear, this man is not chivalrous!”, but “Wow, what a peasant!”
So, WMT, what’s in it for the man? Pardon my French but I think that the odds of getting laid are much higher when you show good manners. And like that your exes would not have to set you up with their little girlfriends anymore
Firstly I like the way you make the point of stating that there is no reason for you to… but it is your choice. Just as some women choose conventional domestic roles and others don’t, some men may choose to be chivalrous whilst others won’t.
Personally I think a man who chooses to do it anyway despite horrible reactions etc must have something good about him. That being said I won’t think twice if a man doesn’t do those things - I would only notice when they DO. And though that may be interpreted badly, I don’t necessarily see it as a negative that the norm is for them not to (for reasons you listed!).
My boyfriend doesn’t always help me out when he can. He is the kindest man and always thinking of me, but I guess certain actions like always opening the door for me are not ingrained in his mind. Only occasionally when I’m carrying something heavy and he doesn’t help I might get slightly annoyed, but usually he offers anyway, and often I feel guilty when he has to carry it all himself!
I definitely agree with your points, and would like to add that perhaps today we can see it as ‘random acts of kindness’ that people often speak about. As a woman I would like to incorporate such acts into everyday life, just as much as any man might. And we don’t have to do this, but at least we are helping to make the world a better place.
I agree, chivalry is dying that’s for sure. Call me old fashioned, but on the rare occasion my door is opened for me I’m so astonished my “thank you so much!” is usually accompanied with uncontrollable blushing and a grin. I can’t help it! Then again, I don’t have too many issues cleaning and cooking either; it’s wonderful in a relationship where the expectation isn’t there… makes it great to dish out anyway!
natalie:
I really really really doubt that opening doors and such increase anyones chances of getting laid. 90% of the decision is made in the first 5 minutes and it has little to do with manners. LOL and I thought I made it known that I have yet to be set up by an EX. To be fair, I do perform such acts of chivalry with my significant others. However, not initially, but more so as the relationship progresses.
msplennylane:
I love R.A.K. Its the greatest feeling to perform random acts of kindness and run away before you can be thanked. However, I think chivalry in the traditional sense is a little different. The acts are not random, but expected. I agree that RAK should be peformed by both genders and we should enter the 21st century together as equals.
Ashley:
its all about the expectations! Spot on.
I like some forms of chivalry - opening the restaurant door, picking up the tab, helping carry stuff (but not her purse). For some reason I HATE opening a car door for a women - maybe because I’m forced to walk all the way around the car. It makes me wonder if she’s helpless. Whereas opening a restaurant door I’m happy to do for her. I’m there anyway, might as well be polite.
WMT & Mason:
Question by WMT: “Whats in it for the men?”
According to WMT: “many times men do it for themselves and their personal satisfaction. However, I understand that women do appreciate it.”
Erm, okay, so it seems both sexes gain from it.
Quel est ton probleme?
x
Cara
According to Mspennylane: “….and often I feel guilty when [my boyfriend] has to carry it all himself!”
Don’t feel guilty hun. You are actually doing HIM a favour.
*Cara giggles mischievously*
WMT, it’s Nathalie. Not Natalie. nathaliewithanh, get it? Comme disait Cara, c’est quoi ton probleme? Anyway, I’m very much impressed with the 90% - 5 minutes figure. I had no idea! This makes me feel alienated from 90% of the eligible population. I’m an outcast.
#
aporia, on June 23rd, 2008 at 11:56 pm Said:
“Chivalry nowadays does indeed has to come from the heart - which is more important than debating about the gender imbalances behind the story etc.
After all, men who respect women get better women :]”
Beautifully said. I agree thoroughly.
can l just say, there are PLENTY of us women who still cook and clean and raise the kids and have dinner ready for our husbands and show our appreciation for them.
I think dadshouse has got it right. It’s common sense really.
I understand that many men are becoming more equalist, but why the fuss when I try to hold a door for them? I got there first, I’m just trying to be nice. Don’t worry about me in my heels, I’ll make sure to catch up to the party. And since when do guys really hate watching a girl run anyways?
[...] section, I am an adamant egalitarian. So, when it comes to dating, I say to hell with all that chivalry. We’re living in the 21st century and encouraging women to embrace their sexuality. [...]